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TOPIC: Unexpected effects of feminism

Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3140621

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I have provided a few links to websites below, of variable levels of reliability perhaps, taken from US government funded research, to a reputable UK magazine, to a blog by someone against feminist ideology.

I found them during a quest to discover whether father's with a difficult relationship with their children/daughters might lead to the child being more likely to adhere to feminist ideology (or to put it another way those exposing feminist views are more likely to have difficult relationships with their father).

I was surprised to learn a lot of changes in children of divorce have been identified, (greater likelihood for aggression for example), and some reasons for the changes.

Here is a short extract from one of the websites:
"When men and women expect different things, relationships fail. Some hard-up mothers have all but given up hope of finding Mr Right. They strive to become financially independent and insist on controlling their own households, notes Ms Sawhill. “They often act as gatekeepers, by denying a father access to his own children.”

Single motherhood is much better than living with an abusive partner. But the chronic instability of low-income families hurts women, children and men. The poverty rate for single-mother families in America is 31%, nearly three times the national norm. Children who grow up in broken families do worse in school, earn less as adults and find it harder to form stable families of their own. Boys are worse affected than girls, perhaps because they typically grow up without a father as a role model. Thus the problems of marginalised men tumble on down the generations.

Men who never shoulder family responsibilities miss out on a lot of joy, and so do many fatherless boys. In Britain, fewer than half of the children of divorce say they have a good relationship with their father. Mr Redden complains that his son, who lives with his mother, “doesn’t listen to me...we ain’t that tight like I’d like us to be.”"

www.economist.com/news/essays/21649050-b...chnology-or-feminism

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5497959/

medium.com/@NikitaCcoulombe/why-feminism...ly-long-4695d45bcf88

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3140738

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I don’t see how any of that can be ‘unexpected effects of feminism ‘ ....

If women are on their own raising children, they should of course strive to become financially independent and ‘insist on controlling their own households’.....and if they find they have to act as ‘gatekeepers’, so they should, if there’s no choice.....sadly there are often reasons why either a father or mother tries to deny the other parent access to the children.

And children are often influenced more by one parent than the other, sometimes in very subtle ways, but it’s not uncommon, whether they’re in a single parent household or not. Children who grow up in ‘broken’ homes can certainly have difficulties coping in life, as can children in unbroken homes.

I don’t see how any of this can be attributed to ‘unexpected effects of feminism ‘ ....jmo :)
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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3140785

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Aviara wrote: I don’t see how any of that can be ‘unexpected effects of feminism ‘ ....

If women are on their own raising children, they should of course strive to become financially independent and ‘insist on controlling their own households’.....and if they find they have to act as ‘gatekeepers’, so they should, if there’s no choice.....sadly there are often reasons why either a father or mother tries to deny the other parent access to the children.

And children are often influenced more by one parent than the other, sometimes in very subtle ways, but it’s not uncommon, whether they’re in a single parent household or not. Children who grow up in ‘broken’ homes can certainly have difficulties coping in life, as can children in unbroken homes.

I don’t see how any of this can be attributed to ‘unexpected effects of feminism ‘ ....jmo :)


This is the kind of thing I was referring to, taken from the US government funded research site:
"Physical masculinisation
Waynforth [15] found that amongst the Maya of Belize, men with separated parents (who were all father absent) showed significantly greater craniofacial masculinity (as measured by the size of three key facial dimensions).

Similarly, Boothroyd and Perrett [6] found amongst a British student sample, that parental separation (again, almost always resulting in the child becoming father absent) in early childhood was associated with increased ratings of facial masculinity in young women. Such differences could be of a genetic nature (i.e. androgenised parents have more likelihood of marital breakdown, and have more masculine offspring) although the evidence of environmental causation above regarding puberty may make this less likely.

Alternatively the link here may also be environmental such that either: stress or perhaps pheromone exposure in childhood affects pubertal hormone levels and thus affects facial structure; or, perhaps less likely, masculinised offspring could in some way be a catalyst to marital breakdown. In either respect, these data suggested that father absence may be associated with physical androgenisation and as such, that broader patterns of behavioural differences between father absent and father present offspring, may also be explicable in these terms.

A key challenge in addressing this question, however, is the fact that the vast majority of research has focused on one or two measures at a time and as such falls short of giving a holistic view of whether father absence is indeed a moderator of gendered behaviour. In this following section, therefore, we will consider the different aspects of gender researched in this context so far: explicit gender role, and aggression, fearfulness, and impulsivity, which all show sex differences by adulthood."

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3140858

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The Research Link given (the 2nd link in the OP) was interesting.
The passages quoted in Graham's post above were part of the scene setting explanation of why they were conducting further research - because there had been a number of research projects but no consensus of evidence or opinion. There have been research projects suggesting no connection between father absence & gender identity and research projects suggesting a weak link.
Reading on through the whole Research Report, we come to the conclusion of the Study this Report was presenting:

"We found no evidence that father absence was associated with changes in the gendered behaviour (i.e. our ‘masculinity’ factor) of female participants, which is concordant with the results of Stephenson & Black’s [3] meta-analysis."

and

"A point of incongruity within our data was the difference between results using father absence as the predictor versus ratings of family relationship quality. While differences in outcomes between father absent groups were weak, correlations with ratings of family quality were much more robust and, as mentioned above, the results for reactivity were consistent across the sexes. This would suggest either that family conflict results in changes in emotional development (i.e. an increase in reactivity), or that individuals who are more reactive in their late teens and twenties are more likely to view memories of their parents negatively. The fact that stronger results have been found using the subjective predictor variable (including the only link between reactivity and family background in men) than from the objective predictor variable would seem to suggest that recall biases might be influencing results. Alternatively, this analysis might suggests that poor quality parental relationships cause changes in development independent of any effects of father absence."

The results of this study suggest to me that "family conflict" and psycho-social stress probably have more environmental influence on a young person's development of gender identity than the absence of a parent - although these two components often go hand in hand. As with all human development, one cannot isolate one single factor to explain a particular trait - we are a product of a combination of our genetic expression and a complex range of inter-connected environmental factors.
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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3140959

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"When men and women expect different things, relationships fail. Some hard-up mothers have all but given up hope of finding Mr Right. They strive to become financially independent and insist on controlling their own households,


When any 2 people in a relationship expect different things, it can be a relationship deal breaker - Obviously.

But i do not think single mothers' aim should be to find Mr Right to rescue them as that writer implies - I think they should strive to be financially independent and manage themselves.
Whether or not they later enter another relationship - or find Mr Right if you want to use that terminology.
Mr Right should not be found from a position of vulnerability - ie of needing someone to financially and otherwise manage for them.


(same could be said for single men finding Miss Right too - but article did not mention them)

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3141113

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If I understand right you are saying a primary cause of the breaking up of a family is feminism?
I think the biggest reason is financial instability. Along with that is not vetting the potential partner or feeling you can deal with someone's shortcomings, like "I can fix that guy." -"Falling in love" is a big cause of unstable relationships.
I think feminism is way down on the list.
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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3141116

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altshovel wrote:
If I understand right you are saying a primary cause of the breaking up of a family is feminism?
I think the biggest reason is financial instability. Along with that is not vetting the potential partner or feeling you can deal with someone's shortcomings, like "I can fix that guy." -"Falling in love" is a big cause of unstable relationships.
I think feminism is way down on the list.


You may be right, although all I've suggested is that those strongly supporting feminist ideology "may have" a more difficult relationship with their fathers, and come across the other unexpected changes social scientist have identified or argued about.. You would not have imagined father absence could have any effect upon the facial characteristics of the children, (for example), could you?

Not sure I've thought about whether feminism has anything to do with marriage breakdown, and if pushed I'd guess many feminists might avoid marriage altogether rather than anything else.

I am told "these days" if you go to a night club in Manchester or wherever, you are likely to see more "straight men" dancing with "straight men" than ever occurred in "my day" (ditto for the women, but that was common when I was in my teenage years due to bashful young men including myself being afraid to ask anyone for a dance). Whether that is a societal change I'm not sure, because my story is only apocraphal, but if true then it is a big change because such behaviour wouldn't have happened at all in the 1960s/1970s in the UK. I'm not linking this change to feminism even though I've posted the comment in this thread, just curious, as it would be a big behavioural change if true.

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3141117

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Eira wrote:
The Research Link given (the 2nd link in the OP) was interesting.
The passages quoted in Graham's post above were part of the scene setting explanation of why they were conducting further research - because there had been a number of research projects but no consensus of evidence or opinion. There have been research projects suggesting no connection between father absence & gender identity and research projects suggesting a weak link.

Reading on through the whole Research Report, we come to the conclusion of the Study this Report was presenting:

"We found no evidence that father absence was associated with changes in the gendered behaviour (i.e. our ‘masculinity’ factor) of female participants, which is concordant with the results of Stephenson & Black’s [3] meta-analysis."

Break
Eira wrote:
"The results of this study suggest to me that "family conflict" and psycho-social stress probably have more environmental influence on a young person's development of gender identity than the absence of a parent - although these two components often go hand in hand. As with all human development, one cannot isolate one single factor to explain a particular trait - we are a product of a combination of our genetic expression and a complex range of inter-connected environmental factors."


You say "one cannot isolate one single factor to explain a particular trait"..........and yet the two pieces of research work by presumably well qualified people did attempt to do this didn't they, quote:
""Physical masculinisation: Waynforth [15] found that amongst the Maya of Belize, men with separated parents (who were all father absent) showed significantly greater craniofacial masculinity (as measured by the size of three key facial dimensions).

Similarly, Boothroyd and Perrett [6] found amongst a British student sample, that parental separation (again, almost always resulting in the child becoming father absent) in early childhood was associated with increased ratings of facial masculinity in young women. Such differences could be of a genetic nature (i.e. androgenised parents have more likelihood of marital breakdown, and have more masculine offspring) although the evidence of environmental causation above regarding puberty may make this less likely.


Although the US government research dismissed the links these two other studies identified, it doesn't take away completely from my mind that anyone would have even suggested such a link in the first place. I'm trying to assess whether there were any changes I could identify in my own daughter following our estrangement, and though I'm by no means sure, there could just be a possibility I'm thinking.

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3141120

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The child parent relationship is built over years of many different emotions and incidents
It’s impossible to say or isolate a few factors as a lot depends on the character of the child and parent and environmental circumstances.
It can’t be just down to feminism although it plays a part in the mother child relationship.

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Unexpected effects of feminism 2 months 3 weeks ago #3141128

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Rips wrote:
The child parent relationship is built over years of many different emotions and incidents
It’s impossible to say or isolate a few factors as a lot depends on the character of the child and parent and environmental circumstances.
It can’t be just down to feminism although it plays a part in the mother child relationship.


.......I was hoping to learn your thoughts on the "club scene" and whether a lot of men dance with men these days, and you've let me down !

You are right of course as to the mother/child relationship goes, (what's that saying about someone having a face only a mother could love!).

However, so far as whether individual factors can be teased out from all the other environmental aspects of whatever it is you're trying to examine, I'm not so sure you are right, as that surely has to be the aim of any research. During my father's rights campaigning days I came across something called the "Parenting satisfaction index", now who'd a thought such an index might exist, and apparently be given credence by those working in family policy or family law.

BTW you do realise I'm looking at everyone's picture now looking for characteristics that might have resulted from father absence (you're okay IMHO - not that I'm suggesting you had any trouble with own your father of course!).

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